Paige (02:48):

Peer reviewed literature or that kind of thing.

Shayna (02:51):

Yes. You're having multiple people look at something, you're having verifiable facts, and from that, we're going to say, "Yes, this then is truth and this is knowledge. And we're going to use this as factual information."

Shayna (03:04):

So I think Wikipedia, on some level, this is my understanding again, and this is what you're going to tell me, whether or not I'm wrong is that, that is what was happening on Wikipedia. Is that not what's happening?

Paige (03:15):

That's how it started. But then it became... So what you said is, "if enough people verify the information, then it could be true".

Shayna (03:24):

Yes. Is that wrong? To think like...

Paige (03:26):

If a bunch of people come together and then they say, "okay, well, Shayna's actually 80 years old". Right? Let's say you have a Wikipedia page and you also have a group of haters, 70 haters, let's say. And they're like, "Let's make Shayna 80 years old". And all 70 of them edit your Wikipedia page, then it reflects that. So we've seen that happen with several celebrities, and the exact examples are escaping my memory. But several celebrities have had their Wikipedia changed, just for funnies or LOLs because groups of people on the internet,i.e Twitter mostly, have said, "Oh, wouldn't it be funny if we changed this celebrity's thing to whatever?" Right? So celebrities have gotten roasted on the internet and people have changed your Wikipedia to say they died by roasting. Right? So it becomes a space for the possibility of misinformation because it's edited collectively and there's no vetting.

Shayna (04:25):

See, this is so tricky. Because I think, in the spirit of Wikipedia and what I understand, theoretically, that makes sense to me. But if people are using the technology for evil purposes-

Paige (04:36):

Yeah.

Shayna (04:37):

Then the technology becomes evil. I don't know. I just am really... I'm sad to hear that that it's being used that way. Is there nothing they can do to prevent that?

Paige (04:47):

I'm not sure what Wikipedia can do, but I know what I do, because I'm-

Shayna (04:51):

Okay. Tell me, what do you do?

Paige (04:52):

If you are listening to this and you work at any of the universities I've gone to, you've already conferred my degree upon me and you can't take it back. So I use Wikipedia, but-

Shayna (05:01):

As a source?

Paige (05:02):

Yes, but in a very different way. Wikipedia cites other sources. So I begin my research on anything on the Wikipedia page, because what you'll find on the Wikipedia page is links to other sources of things.

Shayna (05:16):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paige (05:16):

So you have the blue links, and I actually read the footnotes from Wikipedia, because that's what I'm in. I'm not interested in what's actually on the Wikipedia page, because anybody can put that there. But the links that would be there, so the footnotes that are there, that's where I'm then going to verify the information and say, "Oh, this is also on the World Bank website or it's on whatever website". I mean, we could also get into the very meta of what is true information, but I go to the World Bank site or I go to some research or a book or something else and say, "Okay, well this is true information". But I always start my research on Wikipedia.

Shayna (05:53):

Well also because Wikipedia, generally, anytime I'm searching something on Google, it's one of the first, if not the first, return result.

Paige (06:04):

Always.

Shayna (06:04):

Do we know why that is?

Paige (06:06):

That's a great question. And if any one of our listeners know, please reach out to us and let us know-

Shayna (06:11):

Please do.

Paige (06:11):

Because I actually don't know why it's the first one that populate.

Shayna (06:15):

Is there some-

Paige (06:16):

My guess would be because that one page has several other pages linked to it, so maybe it's a popularity of pages kind of thing. But I-

Shayna (06:25):

Well, that is how Google works. I mean, Google works based on the number of other times that that page shows up on the internet. So if your page is referenced or shows up or links to it, show up more than you're potentially going to return higher on the results page.

Paige (06:42):

Yeah. And I mean, and then I got to thinking about Wikipedia and like you said, how it was edited, and then I realized that we don't have a Wikipedia page.

Shayna (06:51):

We meaning the foundation?

Paige (06:53):

The foundation, yes. The Internet Society Foundation does not have a Wikipedia page just yet. And I was like, "Oh, maybe I could log in, create an account and try to make one".

Shayna (07:03):

And did you make one? What happened?

Paige (07:05):

It did not go well.

Shayna (07:06):

Why?

Paige (07:08):

I do not know how to code. There's even a handy dandy code, cheat sheet. So if you really want to create Wikipedia page, there is a code cheat sheet that Wikipedia provides. And I tried using that [crosstalk 00:07:20]-

Shayna (07:19):

Wait a minute. You mean like HTML code? What kind of code?

Paige (07:23):

Yes. It looked like HTML code.

Shayna (07:24):

So it's basically you're making your own website page.

Paige (07:27):

Yes, and I failed miserably.

Shayna (07:29):

Because they're not... Okay. So that's something I did learn in school. See? See how things were? I did learn HTML code in, I don't know, whenever it was that we got internet or those kinds of things. Yeah. We learned that in school. It wasn't in depth, but we definitely had a week of learn how to do HTML create websites. I remember doing that and colors and all that. Yeah.

Paige (07:53):

I feel like I've also been on very, not internet excluded, but I went into college study biology and then I made the transition to the social sciences. And if you've ever known a social scientist, we still take notes with pen and pencils.

Shayna (08:07):

But this was in my public school days. This was not even in my undergraduate. No, this was before that we were doing that.

Paige (08:13):

This is really interesting.

Shayna (08:14):

Because the internet was a new thing. Yeah. And they were like [crosstalk 00:08:18].

Paige (08:18):

Maybe because it was a new thing, because I went to a very well funded private school in New York and there was no coding classes. Maybe now they do it since it's becoming way more popular. I think that's what it was. You were at the beginning of it and now it's becoming popular so there's a need for it, but I was kind of in the middle of like-

Shayna (08:33):

In the middle.

Paige (08:34):

I mean, I guess you can, I guess you can't, whatever, the Internet's there.

Shayna (08:37):

Interesting.

Paige (08:38):

Yeah. Interesting stuff. Maybe I should learn.

Shayna (08:40):

Well, yes you should learn. Everyone should learn, but I'm also sad to hear that you have to know how to code or write HTML code in order to, or I don't know. I'm saying it's HTML. It may not be, but that you have to do that in order to contribute to Wikipedia. I would think it would be a little more accessible.

Paige (08:59):

I thought so as well. I thought it was just going to be a type up kind of thing and it was not.

Shayna (09:05):

So do we say that's a barrier? Is that a barrier?

Paige (09:07):

Yes, it would absolutely be a barrier, because I think there are people who have knowledge in specific areas that don't necessarily have the kind of tech skills to do that, myself included. And I felt excluded from my contributions and I was really going to write some great things about us and Beyonce and I couldn't. And that made me a little sad.

Shayna (09:28):

Okay. Well the lesson is maybe... What's our takeaway here? Maybe we send something to Wikipedia, because I do appreciate Wikipedia, but it makes me sad that we can't access things. And it also makes me sad that they're able to change, if you have enough people who have evil thinking or nasty thinking, that they can go and change things on someone's page. That makes me really sad. So those are two things. I'm going to send an email. That's what I'm going to do.

Paige (09:55):

We should follow up with Wikipedia on that one.

Shayna (09:58):

Yeah. All right. Well, we'll keep you posted. We'll let you know how it goes.

Shayna (10:01):

Coming up is an interview with Jessica Clarke that I conducted at the launch of our Building

Opportunities and Leveraging Technology grant program here at the Internet Society Foundation. Jessica was a really great thought partner for me in helping design the grant program. And it's currently open, although at the airing of this, it may be closed, but we may be nearing making awards for that grant program. But I just wanted to share with you and let you know a little bit about how we're thinking about innovation and the future of the internet in 2030. Have a listen.

Shayna (10:47):

So Jessica, again, to go back in time, maybe you can talk about sort of what your first computer was. Do you remember?

Jessica (10:54):

Yeah, it was a TRS-80. I've been on the internet. I was thinking about it this morning, three fifths of my life. So it had that little carrot prompt. There were no pictures and it was a big boxy behemoth.

Shayna (11:09):

Was it a green screen? Did it have a green screen?

Jessica (11:11):

It was either a green or orange. I can't remember which, but it wasn't pretty.

Shayna (11:16):

And how did it connect the internet, or was that the computer that you used to connect to the internet?

Jessica (11:21):

Eventually. It had one of those screechy modems. I think we might have even had CompuServe or AOL. I can't remember, but yes, it was a loud and slow process.

Shayna (11:32):

Nice. And what do you remember other than it being loud and slow? Do you remember other things about your first experience on the internet and what that was like?

Jessica (11:40):

I mean, I think just the promise of it, the idea that we could connect to people in other countries. I was a real nerd to this sense of libraries at my fingertips. I got really fascinated immediately and then in college, I started studying some of the early... They were called MUDs, early online communities.

Shayna (12:01):

MUDs? What's a MUD?

Jessica (12:02):

Multi-user dimensions.

Shayna (12:03):

Oh, I've never heard this term, a MUD.

Jessica (12:07):

So yes. Imagine Second Life or VR chat, but just a line of text.

Shayna (12:12):

Okay. Got it. Awesome. And now, I mean, I guess if you think about sort of the evolution of that, and I won't ask you for what year that was that you were doing these things, but I imagine it was eighties, nineties, sort of before the millennium, turn of millennium. But I wonder if you think about sort of the history of that and where we're moving forward, what do you think connecting to the internet would look like, let's say in 2030?

Jessica (12:38):

So a lot of the people that I'm working with now, I edit this thing called immerse.news, are talking about the metaverse. And that means a combo of augmented reality and fully immersive experiences where you might even have a persistent avatar that carries across many different environments or a persistent identity. I think that's one vision, but the truth is it's going to be really unevenly distributed and people are going to be getting on in different ways for all kinds of reasons at all kinds of levels. So we don't really know. Of course, we have lots of sci-fi to tell us what might look like, but the reality is much crunchier and more nuanced.

Shayna (13:15):

Yeah, and I think the point about sci-fi and sort of how much our creative communities influence the actual direction of technology. I don't know if people were aware, but I saw just this past weekend that William Shatner, who played Captain Kirk on Star Trek actually went to space, which is really crazy to me. But really, to see how fiction and sort of these things influence and are able to drive innovation and our march towards the future, I think is really interesting and important. And one of the things that we try to pull out in this call, which we'll talk a bit more about later, who do you think is still not connected in 2030? Who's still not on the internet?

Jessica (13:57):

Well, we asked a bunch of people who are involved with the Foundation this question, and they had various interesting answers. I thought one of the most interesting ones was people who are afraid of the internet and they don't think they don't want to be on it. So part of the challenge for getting people on the internet is making it safer, making it more trustworthy, making it less hate filled. So that's one thing. Another is folks who can't afford it. We think we're not necessarily going to have a global internet, so people who are in countries where they're blocked from access, people who maybe live in places that are still difficult to connect. So those are some of the things that we heard and we were asking around.

Shayna (14:36):

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things recently with the Facebook outage that happened, I think two weeks ago now, maybe, was there was a really interesting response to that. And people were like, "Oh, the whole internet has shut down".

Jessica (14:49):

Right.

Shayna (14:49):

And it was only because it was like, "Well, no, the whole internet is still working. It's just Facebook." And because Facebook and its services are so ubiquitous and so pervasive in our societies that when that goes out, you sort of assume that the entire internet is out. And so I think about when we talk about who's still not online, it's like, yeah, if someone's entire experience is of the internet is through Facebook and its products. If Facebook doesn't exist, if there are legal ramifications, if there are

antitrust situations that emerge, we really may see some interesting things that happen for people's abilities to access and what they're able to access.

Jessica (15:30):

Yeah. I would say it's profound in Latin America. Large lots of the commerce had to shut down because WhatsApp wasn't working. Having a government or a corporation primarily be your choke point is dangerous. And so part of what we are hoping to address with this grant initiative is other ways to get people on the internet that are not just cheaper, but more accessible.

Shayna (15:52):

Definitely. I think the other thing you mentioned that's really interesting, that we think about a lot here at Internet Society Foundation, is around infrastructure too, and how the hardware of the internet and being able to access that and the cost of that is sometimes or oftentimes a barrier. And there were some interesting discussion when we were going around and talking to people and interviewing and just sort of workshopping this whole program, the conversation around reusing older technology and places to sort of offset the accessibility challenges. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that?

Jessica (16:29):

Yeah. I mean, I think the question is instead of this model, this consumer model of obsolescence and ewaste, how can we think about rehabbing older devices and older routers and other things in creative ways and using the limitations of them not as a weakness, but perhaps as a benefit in situations we don't need quite as much high speed access or as many capabilities to get what you need to get done done. So I think a tremendous amount of creative reuse potential in this field that we've only scratched the surface of.

Shayna (17:03):

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's really interesting. I have an iPhone that's very fancy and when I was traveling before the pandemic, I would go to places where I couldn't use my iPhone. It wasn't helpful. And I actually needed just a feature phone to be able to access whatever banking services or FinTech was going on, that it was much easier to do that. And so I think that's a really interesting point of view to take when we think about innovation. It's not just about making the brightest, shiniest, newest thing, but really taking something or an idea that people have already thought of and repurposing it for other things, or to make it more accessible for folks. So I think that's a really interesting take on that.

Jessica (17:45):

Yeah. One of the ridiculous objects that I own is this thing that basically looks like an old fashioned typewriter, and it's just a word processor that has no screen. You can do nothing but write, and it doesn't allow you to cut and paste. You just have to write forward, which is stupid, of course, because I have a thousand computers, but because I need to not be distracted and I want to just write things, I bought this object, and there are many objects like that out in the world that are just waiting for the perfect user.

Shayna (18:14):

Yeah, definitely. And then I guess another question, and coming to sort of wrap up this bit of the discussion, is just around other solutions. And we sort of started talking about this, but who are some folks or what are some things that you've seen of people working towards sort of connecting those who are still unconnected in 2030? Where's the Vanguard and what are they doing and how can we sort of support those efforts?

Jessica (18:39):

I think there's a sort of a triangle between access to the internet, the appropriate interface, and then the ways in which people can use those devices to do the things that they need. There's an example you often bring up. What is the one with the e-readers? Trying to get older people on the internet with tablets?

Shayna (18:59):

Yes. So there's a program that we're supporting through the United Way of Netherlands and Spain and it's through our emergency response program. And it really was an opportunity to get folks connected, seniors, so elderly people who are not very well experienced with the internet and internet technologies and hardwares and tablets and phones, but to get them online during the pandemic, because they were isolated and feeling rather lonely, as many of us were and still are. And they were connecting them through tablets that were really paired down. And so they had it installed software onto the tablets where it was just you only have sort of like two buttons to push. There's only two apps that you have on there. And one is WhatsApp, which is the one that you're going to use to talk to people. And then there was another, something that was pretty simple to make phone calls or something like that.

Shayna (19:51):

But the idea that you're sort of removing all the things that are available to you via the internet to make it more accessible is also really interesting and innovative way to approach connecting folks, because some of us don't actually want all of the things. We don't want access to, or we get overwhelmed with all of the bells and whistles of what the technology can do for us, and sometimes we just want it to do that one thing and do it very well, and we're happy with that.

Shayna (20:16):

And so I think the utility value of technology is really important in thinking about what has value for folks. Not necessarily what you can do, or what's the coolest thing you can do with a thing, but actually, what are people going to appreciate and how is it going to improve their lives or make their lives easier?

So I think those are the solutions also that we want to focus on.

Jessica (20:37):

There's also a really interesting article in New York times recently about community mesh networks. So that's, again, it's like a hardware solution, a networking solution. And then there's that local incentive to be connected to people around you, to be volunteering, to have a feeling that what you're doing is relevant. So I think there are lots of great examples and I'm hoping that we find out about more of them as people apply.

Shayna (21:05):

Definitely. Well, thank you so much for this, Jessica, for this quick chat and for sort of contextualizing how we're thinking about this and to maybe give some clues and some insight into some of our applicants for the program, just about how we're thinking about it, so we can demystify a bit of the application process. So thank you so much.

Paige (21:38):

Thank you, Shayna, for copying me in on that amazing chat with you and Jessica. I've been in meetings with her and I really, really enjoy the way of you think together. I don't know if that's a thing, but I really enjoy the way your energies and thoughts bounce off each other. I think it's super, super interesting, and the one thing that came out is the futurist approach. And that's been said multiple times, and I just wanted to get your take on what does that look like to you? The futurist approach of how to connect folks to the internet?

Shayna (22:14):

I mean, I think there's some textbook sort of theoretical definitions around futurist approach that we could get into. But really for me, it's just thinking about and anticipating and designing an internet that we want, and that meets the needs of all of us in a future space. So not necessarily something that addresses specifically issues or barriers or problems that we see today, but that's anticipating and trending forward. What can we expect in the future? So what can we do now to mitigate those things in the future? So it's a bit of forecasting and thinking about it from that lens, as opposed to thinking about the right now. Because there are a myriad of issues right now, which will contribute to problems in the future, but I think there's also things that we're not thinking about necessarily or things that don't get as much attention in the future that we really should be thinking about now, so that we don't sort of drive off the cliff.

Paige (23:12):

Yeah. And remembering something that Jessica mentioned about reasons why people won't be connected. And one of them was just because folks are either scared or mistrust, whatever the word may be, of the internet, and then they refuse to connect. And I was just thinking about conversations around Facebook specifically, but social media in general and its impact on young girls specifically, and just everyone in general and our attention span and beauty standards and all of these things.

Paige (23:50):

And you can understand why someone might not want to be, but that's such a small portion of what the internet is about. And I think for me, in addition to thinking of a futuristic way to connect folks, having a futurist approach to the education we give, like Jessica mentioned that in some places, the internet, or was it you? Like the internet is Facebook. That's what it is. It's only as big as Facebook. So I think in addition to connection, educating people that it's not just Facebook. There's an entire large thing out there that you can shape and mold to your own liking.

Shayna (24:33):

Yeah. The possibilities are really endless. And I think if you think about how far we've come in my lifetime, when I think about that, in my mom's lifetime, in my grandma's lifetime, of how far technology has moved and how fast it's gone. If you think about 2030, there are going to be things that we never imagined that are going to be happening in 2030. And I think if we're not careful, if we're not thoughtful about what some of the concerns are now, for example, things that you said with people having trust or people experiencing harm and violence online. If we don't look to sort of mitigate those situations now, they're going to turn into monsters in 2030, and they may be out of control in situations where people really don't want to be on the internet. And that would be sad, because the potential for the internet to change your life and to change my life, certainly it has, and it would just be sad to have people choosing not to be a part of that because of harm.

Paige (25:33):

You said something about the things that could possibly happen in 2030 or things that we probably can't imagine of, but I think they are they're, they might be in fiction. I think of myself as like a 12 year old girl with a Blackberry, right? I had a Blackberry at 12 and the concept of BBM was so cool, because it was like, it's not a text message, but it's over WiFi and you can send as many, because you have to pay for text messages. So this way you can send as many messages and not worry about it.

Paige (26:04):

And I'm thinking about that 12 year old girl and thinking about something as simple as FaceTime. And I would've never imagined that, but I do recall this futuristic cartoon, and the name is not coming to me, where that's how they spoke to each other. You could see a little image of the person. And I just remember watching that and like, "Oh my God, like maybe I'm like 50 or get there", but it's like, I'm 24 and you can see a person's face on the phone. And I think it moves so fast and human beings are adapting well that you don't even realize just how fast it was. Like at 12, I would've never been able to say, "Oh yeah, I'm going to be able to like look at someone's face", or "I'm going to be able to have an entire job from my house online".

Shayna (26:50):

Right.

Paige (26:51):

It's moving so fast. It makes me excited for not just our future grantees for this program, but just the future of technology and innovation and what is possible. It's going to be pretty amazing.

Shayna (27:06):

Yeah, I think so. And actually, if you think about it, a lot of the stuff that we're talking about and we're thinking about is probably actually already in the works, right? So it may take 10 or 20 years for it to get to general population and consumers, but those things are actually in testing phase and product development phase. I think things like projecting keyboards, holograms and things like that, in your phone and stuff. I think people are already making those things. I think that technology is very close to being in existence if it's not already, but it's just going to take a while for it to get through the markets and for the people to produce the stuff in mass to be able to have it come to market.

Shayna (27:53):

But I think, yeah, those things are existing. And I think with this particular program and why I just love and really appreciate it, working with Jessica and just the ways in which we would sort of talk about these things, is that it's just so broad and so wide, the possibility. And that also, to even reflect back on our earlier conversation about Wikipedia and how sometimes technology that's intended for good can be used for evil, is that we really have to have people and support collaborations and partnerships of people who are working together to create the future that we actually want to see. And not just a few people working in the lab, creating these random things that we don't actually know is happening today.

Shayna (28:34):

And we don't know what's happening until it's too late, until it shows up on our iPhone. And you're like, "Oh, I didn't even... What? Nobody told me we were making this! I didn't sign up for this!". So I think yeah, there's some interesting, interesting things and ways to think about it. And I'm hopeful that this program really targets and speaks to more of public interest technology, more technology that supports civil society, technology for good, not for evil, that really helps all of us get online and get connected to the internet. I think that's really where the focus is of this program.

Paige (29:10):

Yeah. I think you summed it up really well when you said technology for good and purposefully making it for good, not just making a thing and then being like, "Oh, I guess people can use it for bad", and thinking about all of it and making sure you put that extra thought in like, "No, this is something for good. It's for public interest." Like you said, civil society. Yeah. I'm really, really excited to see the applications that come through and the kinds of things that we get to support and watch grow.

Shayna (29:39):

Yeah, me too. I did want to also say, I've been thinking about, and this is something that's been coming up and I've been writing about it or working on an article for a magazine, around different types of approaches to innovation. And it was really inspired by Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin going to space. And I just watched that and I was just like so confused about everything. I was like, "What? Jeff Bezos in space?" And it just really had me thinking about what gets celebrated as innovation, what gets funded as innovation, what are the things that as a society and as a culture, particularly in the US, that we get excited about and who we support and who we celebrate.

Shayna (30:26):

I'm struggling a bit because while I appreciate science and I appreciate advancement and technology and development, I'm also sometimes a little bit annoyed by other folks who get overlooked in their contributions to advancement. And so again, I would support and encourage people who, if you have ideas, as crazy and far fetched as they feel that, that your ideas are just as valid as the next person, even if you can't code, even if you don't know how to do those things. Your contributions and the way that you move through the world are just as valid as everybody else's. And so I just hope that we really see that come through in this program.

Paige (31:10):

Yeah. And that's the kind of work that we support and help thrive from all corners. Not just from the margins, from wherever, and just kind of supporting all that stuff and making sure everybody has a fighting chance to end it.

Shayna (31:25):

What do you think the internet is going to look like in 2030? How are people connecting to the internet in 2030, is a better question.

Paige (31:36):

Not to sound like a crazy person, but it's definitely... I think it's going to be connected to your body.

Shayna (31:42):

Definitely.

Paige (31:42):

I don't know. I don't want to go as far as... I don't want to say the M word.

Shayna (31:47):

What's M?

Paige (31:48):

Microchip. I will not say that word. But I do think-

Shayna (31:51):

Oh, implants?

Paige (31:51):

Yeah.

Shayna (31:53):

But this is what I'm saying, That's already happening.

Paige (31:55):

Yeah. I think that'll be a thing [crosstalk 00:31:57].

Shayna (31:56):

That kind of technology already exists. We're just going to repurpose it so you can now connect it to Facebook. Like people have pacemakers and heart monitors. They have all kinds of things that are implants in your body.

Paige (32:07):

Yeah, and are these technological implants into their body. It's just left to you to put a little WiFi in them and boom. Now you can connect to Google.

Shayna (32:15):

But they do. But maybe then you can listen to Spotify, but to your heartbeat.

Paige (32:20):

Do not entice me. And you see, that's where they're going to get me. Because I think with the implant, I might be skeptical, but the moment they're like, "Feel the music like it's inside of you", I'm like, "Oh, sign me up. Wait a minute. So I can feel like I'm at a Commodores concert listening to Nightshift."

Shayna (32:37):

Not the Commodores.

Paige (32:38):

I do love The Commodores. What's so...

Shayna (32:42):

Do you? I don't even know about the Commodores.

Paige (32:43):

I'm an old soul. I do love the Commodores.

Shayna (32:45):

Oh, that's awesome. Okay.

Paige (32:47):

Yeah, but they might get me. They might get me with that Spotify chip though. I might get a couple of them.

Shayna (32:51):

You might get one of those implanted. Okay.

Paige (32:56):

Yeah.

Shayna (32:56):

All right. Well, let me know. Copy me in on that one. Okay. This has been BCC with Shayna-

Paige (33:02):

And Paige.

Shayna (33:03):

Talk to you next time.

Shayna (33:05):

BCC is supported by the Internet Society Foundation.